Oxygen Management During Wine Production and Bottling

- [Chris Gerling] Todd Steiner is the Enology program manager and outreach specialist, the Department of Horticulture and Crop Sciences at the Ohio State University, OARDC, in Wooster, Ohio.

That's Wooster, not Worcester, right?

- Yeah. That's true. - Not W-O-R-C-E. Yeah.

You know, not the Massachusetts one. Yeah.

Todd has been with the Ohio State University, OARDC for 33 years, and has been the leader of the Enology program since 2001.

He serves as a state enology outreach specialist, the Ohio Commercial Wine Industry.

His Extension responsibilities include organize the Annual Ohio Grape and Wine Conference, the Annual Ohio Wine Competition Workshops, and being a feature presenter at both in-state and out-of-state meetings, webinars.

Recently, he has developed several large problematic efforts to answer the growing wine industry in Ohio.

Todd has been honored to judge a numerous regional national international wine competitions in the United States.

He has served several terms on the board of directors of the American Society for Enology and Viticulture.

All of you should join and get on the board once you've joined.

Eastern section.

And Todd has recently been awarded with the ASCVES Distinguished Service Award at the 2022 annual conference, which is a big deal and Todd was well deserving.

Todd is also recently honored as a 2022 Wine Industry Leader by Wine Business Monthly.

Todd is a good friend, a great colleague, good to always be a part of something with him.

And so take it away, Todd.

- Hey, thanks, Chris. Appreciate it.

Good to have you on board as always.

So, and I think the distinguished service award just means I'm getting older, Chris.

I think that's all that means.

But anyway, let me share my screen here and make sure I've got what I need for you guys.

- [Chris Gerling] And while Todd is doing that, I'll just remind everybody that when you have questions, you can put them in the Q&A.

You should have a tab down there that Q&A and Molly will be watching that, and we will periodically or at the end, put those questions to Todd.

- Can everybody see my screen now?

- Yes, we can. - Okay. That's a good start.

Like I say, I know enough just to be dangerous on the IT side, so hopefully everything goes smooth for everybody.

But, you know, it's certainly an honor to be here and present at the webinar today.

And, you know, when I was asked by Molly, you know, one of the most, one of the, I guess one of the main focuses we've had for a while now, starting back in oh, about 8 or 10 years ago, was looking at the effects of oxygen and, you know, how it affects wine quality, both, you know, during cellar aging and as well as bottling.

And then, you know, of course that's leading to conditions for, you know, affecting shelf life stability and aging potential.

So that's what we're gonna cover here today.

So we're gonna look at kind of oxygen management during wine production and bottling.

So again, thank Pennsylvania or Penn State and Molly Kelly for inviting me as well as Chris onboard and Cornell's effort, as well as Virginia Tech on this webinar series, which I think is a great way to get good information out to people.

So, and then all the attendees for taking their valuable time out of your busy schedules.

I know things are busy in the vineyard as well as the cellar, but it's always good to gain additional information that you can, hopefully it'll lead to improved quality down the road from all these webinars and the experts that they have present.

And so well, we're gonna talk about just a little brief outline, we're gonna do kind of an overview of oxygen, some benefits and some problems that we might see with oxygen and treatment in the wine.

We'll do cover a little bit on limiting oxygen exposure, and then we're gonna look at kind of an action plan that we developed, you know, like I say about 8 or 10 years ago.

And we're gonna cover some of the results of a bottling line study we did to help kind of focus on the importance of oxygen management and especially at bottling.

But look a little bit about sulfur oxide use and its integration with oxygen too at that time.

And then just kind of do provide an overview or some actions on overall results of our, of what we saw.

So, looking at oxygen uptake, you know, we see some benefits of oxygen, obviously, and one can be through hyper oxidation.

People may have varied, kind of, I guess, opinions on this, but it's where we have the intent exposure with oxygen to must and juice to help kind of prevent further post-fermentation browning reactions.

So we're taking some of those phenolic browning precursors out of the juice, so we're intentionally adding oxygen.

However, I would say that, you know, some of the work that we've done at the research center there, you know, I would not necessarily say it's been extremely beneficial to improve wine quality through this action.

There has been some studies that we would say that there has been some benefit of this, but, you know, we really didn't see anything long term that would help prevent, you know, shelf life stability or, you know, lessen the amount of oxidation down the road.

So, matter of fact, when I was in Italy a number of years ago now, but they were actually going the other way and they were going hypooxidation and they were actually trying to limit all oxygen to the juice and the must stage.

So they were using inner like press bags for their presses and using an inert gas.

And so they would try to actually fully limit that.

Now, I don't think they're to that extent as much any more, and we do need oxygen for successful alcoholic fermentation and that's absolutely critical at the right stages.

So, you know, it's really important at the end of growth phase just to make sure, you know, our yeast are happy and successful and, you know, they have good fermentation profiles.

Sometimes smaller dosages through the mid-fermentation can be good, especially if yeast are starting to get a little bit stressed out and we can help prevent maybe some H2S at that point too.

But, you know, the only time I'd really recommend oxygen towards the latter part is if we would have a stuck fermentation.

And then we still have to ask are there issues of why we might have a stuck fermentation?

So it could be glucose to fructose ratios, could be some toxic effects from, you know, microbial issues that are going on.

So we'd have to look at those too to just see what might be the root of a stuck or slow fermentation.

But really most of the upfront oxygen that is in the fermentation or even midway through, is gonna get blown off by CO2.

So, you know, that's really not a concern, as we would think for, say, chemical oxidation or anything at that point really.

Another time oxygen can be beneficial as we may know is through a process called micro-oxygenation.

And that's where a kind of a specific procedure we would utilize that would add controlled micro amounts of oxygen to, especially to red wines to help maybe polymerize some of these tannins and phenolic compounds that could be a little bit harsh in red wine.

So, you know, that requires specific equipment that can monitor and deliver the exact dosages we would require for this procedure.

And probably something you'd wanna just make sure you're up to date on, 'cause we certainly wouldn't wanna have an addition of too much oxygen that, you know, chemical oxidation could be an issue or further down the road for other microbes, aerobic microbes to utilize.

So typically, you know, I would say generally it's detrimental from, for wine quality from the end of fermentation, you know, through cellaring, bottling and aging of wine.

So, and we see oxidation through several different avenues.

So one would be enzymatic and chemical oxidation.

So the enzymatic we might see through like polyphenol oxidase or PPO and also lactase enzyme, which is typically, you know, we would observe in botrytized fruit, you know, those kind of things.

Chemical oxidation really occurs with the reaction to wine components, mainly polyphenols, with oxygen that, you know, form these browning precursors or browning cursors we're used to and quinones that can ultimately develop acid aldehyde, which is responsible for that, you know, that acetic acid or vinegar aroma or that classic nutty sherry-like aroma that we would be used to.

Another issue with excess oxygen pickup or entrainment into wine could be through aerobic microbes like acetic acid bacteria or film yeast for example, brettanomyces.

However, Brett should be noted that they can actually grow in environments of very low oxygen too.

So this would be more with acetic acid bacteria, film yeast than some other microbes there.

And especially in years where it may not be the greatest vintage...

You know, we've had some rain, we have compromised fruit coming into the cellar.

Certainly those are issues where we really wanna limit oxygen too.

So, 'cause those microbes are present and we wanna keep them from, you know, creating any off byproducts or anything in the wine during cellaring and or through up the bottling.

So, but they can't be problematic through fermentation and aging and it would depend on the microbe at hand.

So, you know, in early stages, problems with oxygen pickup, we may just see maybe it's a loss of varietal character, so we might be happy with a wine that's gone through fermentation, you know, good profiles, good aroma, flavor compounds, mainly aroma through fermentation.

And as we get into aging, you know, we're still okay upfront, but maybe we're starting to see a reduction in aroma.

We're gonna lose some esters over time, however, and it depends on temperatures too, but you know, if we start seeing a reduction in aroma, there's probably a chemical reason why that's occurring and it could likely be due to increased oxygen and or the combination of increased oxygen and a lack of SO2 as well.

So, you know, we might note muted fruit or bruised apple and some of this could occur before we see any browning precursors or in white wines or maybe some orange hues in blush roses.

And on the red side we might see some brick hues in red wines, especially young wines that we're talking about here.

So it also affects, increased oxygen obviously also affects the aging potential and wine stability in the bottle.

So, we'll show some of that, some of the study results that we have and it's also an increased concern, becomes more of a concern with low SO2 being present as well as, you know, anytime we have headspace, which I don't recommend and temperatures can have a big effect on this as well, and the rate of oxidation over time or, you know, just wine instability over time.

So, you know, mainly oxygen can range in wine from, you know, six to nine milligrams per liter or approaching saturation.

So anytime we move wine, you know, that can be a concern.

So it does dissolve more rapidly at lower temperatures.

That's why cold stabilization really is of concern to us.

So we certainly wouldn't wanna have any head space during cold stabilization or we would also wanna make sure our SO2 levels are up where they need to be going into cold stabilization so that when we come out of cold stabilization or anytime we warm a wine up that was cold, the process of oxidation, the chemical process occurs more rapidly.

And you can say that about a lot of chemical processes that they tend to occur more rapidly at warmer temperatures.

So definitely points of concern there.

So, you know, how can we further limit it?

We can avoid potential sources of oxygen pickup.

That can really start as early as to the harvested grapes or the bins.

And we might choose to use, you know, a newer product, I say newer, it's been on the market for a little while now, but some of the non-Saccharomyces yeast can be added to the harvested grape bins or the juice.

And really what this will do is help scavenge some of the oxygen to outcompete the, or suppress the spoilage microorganisms that may be there.

And that could be especially true, you know, years where we might have compromised fruit and things like that.

But they're there and it could be something that we could utilize as a tool for us.

And another aspect that some of the non-Saccharomyces yeast can utilize is they can scavenge copper ions, which are, you know, integral to the kind of the juice browning reactions and the start of oxidation as well.

So certainly that could be a possibility.

I wouldn't do this in place of, I really feel strongly that once you harvest, you know, we wanna harvest as cool as we can to keep that microbial activity down.

But I would also suggest either utilizing dry ice or dry ice snow in the bins to help chill those grapes down, knock that microbial activity down as well as if we do something like that, then we're adding CO2 in there also, which takes that oxygen out of there for some of the spoilage organisms that may be present.

And I always recommend, you know, I like to see that fruit actually go immediately, you know, unless we're machine harvesting, which we essentially can't do, but maybe we have some ion exchange capabilities, or sorry, heat exchange capabilities for that mechanical harvested juice.

But take the grapes once they're harvested, put 'em in a large fruit cooler that we, you know, might be able to use tow motors and go in and knock that down.

It's gonna help us start fresh the next day.

And actually it's gonna help lead to a little bit more clarified juice, which can ultimately help with better, in my mind, in my experience, better varietal character and better fermentation profiles.

So, you know, other potential sources for, you know, excess oxygen pickup, like I say, anytime we move the wine, so in the cellar, you know, anytime we rack, if we have excess headspace, again, which I don't promote headspace, pumping, filtration and bottling, those are certainly all times that we need to be cognizant of a potential for dissolving excess oxygen into the wine.

So, you know, considering this, we wanna keep our tanks full, fill the tanks from the bottom, avoid splashing, you know, inspect our pumps for any leaks or bad seals and also secure any loose hose connections or fittings.

And, you know, what I think is a critical thing too to help limit oxygen exposure, anytime we do wanna move the wine, you know, purge the transfer line and the receiving vessel with an inert gas.

If we think about how much air that is in those transfer lines and that receiving vessel, you know, we're really starting behind the eight ball with absorbing or diluting too much oxygen into that wine.

So certainly something that I think would be a good thing to practice before you move wines is to purge those transfer lines and receiving vessels.

So that's a good thing.

The other thing we can do is, you know, after fermentation we can stay on the lees, obviously this depends on variety and wine style, but this can help as an antioxidant effect and scavenge the oxygen, and it can also, you know, provide some additional mouthful effects.

So, you know, especially varieties like Chardonnay or viognier or, you know, in some cases Riesling, depending on a winery's desires, you know, to stay on the lees and we can incorporate that with red wines and also, you know, a process known as bâtonnage where we may store, you know, one to two times a month or maybe some wineries wanna do a little more than that.

But I would just caution that you don't stir it excessively to where we're kind of being counterproductive and we're getting too much oxygen in there.

So, but certainly the lees have a good antioxidant effect too that we can use.

And you know, if we have occasional stirring that's not adding too much oxygen, you know, hopefully over time, if we keep getting that up into solution of the wine, you know, over time we might see some of the mannoproteins in that kind of a taller size, and help lead to increased mouthful effects and overall quality improvements too.

We can also choose to add enological tannins, which can be a good source to help react with available oxygen that may be in the wine.

And also it has some microbial effect too.

So there could be some multiple reasons for the addition of tannin.

What I think is probably one of the main things would be monitor and maintain sulfur dioxide at appropriate levels based on pH.

I still think this is probably one of the most important things we can do to retain wine quality.

And that would go across the board from, you know, chemical oxidation to all kinds of microbial issues that could develop.

So we wanna keep them at bay and we wanna make sure that for white wines we're somewhere around 0.8 parts per million molecular of free SO2 based on pH, and reds, somewhere, you know, we can probably be a little lower, about 0.5 or 0.6 during aging.

And again, it would depend, you know, unless these wines have, or as we're approaching bottle, if they as have a little more residual sugar, then I'd probably say we could maybe go up higher than this just to make sure that, you know, we're probably gonna have some binding to some of the sugars, glucose, you know, other wine components, phenolics.

So it could be that we may need to be higher in that.

And then as we go through some of the bottling study results that we have, you'll see why we might wanna be a little bit higher too than that.

If the oxygen content is a little high prior to bottling, then we have an option, we can sparge the wine with an inert gas like nitrogen or carbon dioxide to lower that oxygen prior to going through the bottling process.

I would probably choose nitrogen or argon, probably nitrogen prior to bottling because then that way we're not gonna increase pressure affects too much where we have too much dissolved carbon dioxide in the wine and we could see, you know, (indistinct) of wine, you know, outside the side of the corks or we could have enough pressure to push the cork out too a little bit, so that wouldn't be good.

And I'll cover this too in the bottling study, but typically recommended levels that have been reported for DO, we would see, you know, it's our desire to have below one milligram per liter or one parts per million.

Red wines we can go a little bit higher but stay within this one just because of the phenolics compounds and their interaction with oxygen over time.

So 0.75 to 1 where white and blush and rose, you know, probably, you know, ideally if we could be around 0.5 to 0.75, again, that would be ideal.

But if we can stay below 1, I think that's a pretty good target range for DO in our bottle of wine.

So in light of this, we decided, you know, let's look at our industry again, this was about 8 to 10 years ago and see where we are.

So, you know, is it a concern?

So we sent a paper survey out and we wanted to see just kind of some general, you know, awareness of oxygen management, some potential problems that we might see in our wineries and then go from there, see if there merits further assessment or further work.

So then we looked at, what we did see was that, yeah, we were concerned that there could be some issues there at hand and so we did some initial assessments with oxygen levels in white, red and rose wines.

So we received some of these wines just right after bottling or shortly after bottling from a few participating wineries.

And, you know, this was good for preliminary assessment to see where we were, but it really didn't take into account, you know, initial DO at the bottling tank or the holding tank or also anything regarding headspace oxygen and ultimately the TPO or total package oxygen.

But it did tell us that, yep, there could be some issues as we looked at sulfur dioxide too in those wines.

So then what we wanted to do is we wanted to develop kind of a bottling line audit, you know, how are we gonna go through and do this?

So we worked with some additional wineries and what we were finding at the winery is, yeah, there was some reason for concern.

So that led us to kind of our larger study here that we see number 4 and to determine the effect of oxygen pickup at bottling.

So we worked with about 14 wineries in addition to ones we had worked with before.

And we also wanted to look at temperature effects, you know, DO at the holding tank or bottling tank, also, you know, after the pump outlet, you know, how much are we scrubbing oxygen in there as well, or after the filter and then the filled wine, looking at bottle headspace and ultimately total package oxygen.

Then we also looked a bit at the effective DO and headspace oxygen on software oxide over time.

So what we did was, and with the help of the Ohio Grape Industries Committee, we purchased a Nomasense Trace Unit to quantitatively measure dissolved oxygen really through all stages of the winemaking process.

But in this particular case, you know, we were using it for our bottling line study.

So it works off of oxo-luminescence kind of technology where we have these dots that we put in either a sightglass or a tank or, you know, in our case here at the bottling, we put it in the bottle, and if I can get my cursor to work...

And so we have that in there and then this probe receives signals through the wine and into this dot matrix here, through this sensor foil.

And we get how much oxygen is in that wine.

So here we can see, we can measure headspace oxygen noninvasively.

So the good thing is we don't have to remove the cork where that would, you know, apply too many variables with air rushing in.

once we remove the cork so we can analyze our oxygen, oops, our oxygen content there as well as the DO in the wine.

And you can see those dots here and I'll show you once on ones we did, there's the headspace and there's for the DO.

So we identified 14 wineries.

So we worked with kind of small, medium and large.

So we split them up according to what we would kind of consider, you know, in Ohio and probably the majority of those listening on the webinar, you know, anywhere small wineries we consider less than 10,000, medium, less than 50, and large, less than 120,000 gallons.

And we chose from different parts of the state and then we looked at the bottling line audit.

So we had to obtain the bottles, the exact bottles that our wineries were gonna use to bottle.

So we went by previous runs too, just so we could determine the amount of headspace that they commonly had in that bottle from their line or their gravity filler, however they were filling.

And so we put those dots and we measured their closure too that they were gonna use.

So we put those dots correctly in the headspace area as well as in the middle of the bottle where we were gonna look at DO.

So that was important to do that.

And then we also had sight glasses that we took with us and we put dots in there so we could measure after the pump or after the filler, if applicable.

So here is one of the runs that we were doing at a winery.

So this just shows in the headspace where we had a dot there and then one in the, for the DO.

And, you know, one of the important things we wanted to assess, you know, during that process that is to determine the temperature of the wine at the bottling tank and the initial DO, which is important.

So, you know, once bottling started, we took a sightglass reading after the pump as well and filter if they were using a pad filter up front before maybe a sterile filter or something, depending on the winery and the size.

But the bottling line kind of determined how many bottles we were gonna use.

So typically we'd like to see one bottle per filler spout.

And, 'cause what we did find is that we found in several cases some of the filler spouts weren't running properly and we actually found excess oxygen coming out of specific filler spouts going into the wine.

So, you know, that was kind of interest that we saw.

You know, maybe they had cracked bell valves, rubber valves or something like that.

But we could see, you know, a particular head that caused more ingress of dissolved oxygen into the wine.

So we run reps through the beginning, middle and the end to get an idea.

This is just, we're at a bottling line where we're, Dr. Lander and I, I had him on that project at that time as well.

We're just taking the initial DO and the temperature readings out of the bottling tank.

And then in this case, this is after a pump where we're pumping red wine here for bottling and we can see the site glass with the dot there and then one on white wine that we're doing.

I guess what's interesting to note here, and we'll cover this a little bit later on, further temperature effects, but this was a white wine, I think they were probably trying to push this wine too soon after cold stabilization into a bottle.

And so we see all the condensation here and likely we're gonna see values of increased oxygen ingress due to that cold bottling at cold temperatures.

- [Molly] Hi, can I ask you a quick question? Sorry.

- Yeah, sure. Yeah.

- [Molly] So someone had asked, are those dots on the, they're on the inside?

- Yes, that's correct. Yep. - Okay.

- And it's, so it's non-evasively, and we can use those dots, you know, a number of times as long as we make sure we clean and that after, you know, good cleaning protocols after that.

But that's on the inside so that they're, you know, in that wine solution so we know what that DO is of the line.

So good question.

But our study, we looked at triplicate samples and mainly we looked at during the middle of the run for this study, because if we're gonna have an oxygen issue, you know, if we look at typical bottling curves, you know, we'll have oxygen high at the beginning and then we kind of have a bell curve.

So during the middle it'll dip to about the lowest and then it'll come up to kind of a higher level too.

So at the beginning we have, in our tank, in our holding tank or bottling tank, we have more oxygen probably dissolved up towards surface.

And then as we bottle and we get to the middle, you know, probably a lower amount of oxygen at the end, we think, you know, we're taking that wine all the way down so we're scrubbing more air, you know, into that tank and we're gonna get more oxygen at the end of the bottling line too.

So that's why we said, well, if we're gonna have an issue, we're gonna see it in the middle too.

So we ran triplicates at day zero, in other words, day of bottling, seven days after, 21, 63 and 126.

And then these are the parameters that we tested for.

And once it was corked, then we pulled it off immediately and tested for dissolved oxygen and headspace, and then at that time we could put it in a spreadsheet to where we could calculate out the TPO.

So this is just a wine that was filled and we're just analyzing the dissolved oxygen.

And then we would follow up with the headspace oxygen up above, up here.

This is a graph of the 14 wineries that took part of the study.

So this is the winery size.

So we see, we just gave 'em a letter, whether medium, large, small, the filler type that they were using, were they using an automated filler, gravity filler?

And then also the closer operation, was it a semi-auto, auto or manual closure?

And then the bottle evacuation in the headspace treatment or headspace evacuation, you know, were they using a vacuum?

Were they using nitrogen?

You know, as we might see in a lot of automated lines...

Were they using no evacuation as in, you know, some of these that we see?

And there's too many here and we'll see, there's too many to just use no evacuation.

We'll see the ramifications of that.

And then the same as headspace.

So, and then this is the closure type, at least that they were using for that particular wine that they were bottling that day.

So when we look at some of the results, when we look at wine temperature, wine temperature is essential for, to be at a specific temperature at bottling and it'll range somewhere, you know, recommended ranges could range from 63 to 70, you know, at bottling to help provide less dissolved oxygen.

It helps provide less thermal expansion and pressure in the headspace also.

So, and ultimately this all, you know, depends on fill levels too, so you know, it'll affect your fill levels ultimately.

So, you know, a wine temperature, out of the 14, we had six wines that were bottled within the correct temperatures.

We observed a range from about 54 to 74 degrees.

And other studies that we did, we saw one at 40 and this was just drastically too low.

And we saw over a threefold increase in oxygen pickup due to that low temperature at bottling.

And I think that was the one that you saw had that condensation on that sight glass.

And also, you know, and we're gonna see this leads to a large depletion of free SO2, so we don't have any more SO2 in there after bottling, you know, after, you know, a short period of time to protect that wine from chemical oxidation or other microbial instabilities and ultimately affect shelf life potential.

So this is just a kind of a graph that shows, Dr. Gallander put this together a number of years ago in our newsletter, just shows the effect of temperature with bottom tank pumping and oxygen pickup.

So here we see temperature at 70 degrees Fahrenheit, have a pickup right around 0.5 PPM or milligrams per liter.

And then here at 50, so 20 degrees lower, we saw a threefold increase in oxygen pickup, whereas something like splash racking, we might see, you know, pickup of seven milligrams per liter, could even be higher, you know, we're approaching a saturation point towards those levels there, that can be a concern.

So looking specifically at some of the results on DO levels at the holding tank, you know, DO levels also indicate, you know, how are we doing with oxygen management in the cellar?

So if we find high DO levels at the holding tank, for us, that's one thing to say, well, we probably wanna go back and see, you know, why are we bringing in high DO levels to the holding tank?

So let's look at some other factors or other procedures we're doing in the winery to see why that might be.

So it would be further investigation back to see if we can pinpoint what's going on there or why we're picking up higher levels.

So, but our guideline at the holding tank would be about 0.5 PPM would be our desire to come in there.

In our results, we saw a range from 0.2 to 3, so quite a range.

Five wines were below this desired level and nine were above the recommended limit.

Six wines were in kind of a medium range.

So we had three tiers.

So we had a tier that were pretty good coming in to the bottling tank.

Then we had a medium range, range anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5.

You know, this is acceptable, you know, especially if we're monitoring and managing SO2 appropriately, we desire it lower, but it's a target to shoot for lower.

But then we saw four wines in this study that were high and just, you know, were really gonna be a problem down the road with loss of SO2 and definitely shortened shelf life potential.

This is just a graph showing those three dissolved oxygen levels for wines coming into the bottling tank.

So we kind of grouped them together.

Again, this is the acceptable range.

So they came in at the holding tank in the black, there was five wineries and we just averaged the wines to come up with this result.

But then we do see that, you know, they picked up additional DO, which is to be expected during bottling.

So here's the mid-range.

So they range from 0.5 to one and a half at the holding tank.

But then, you know, we saw they definitely increased over one and a half, between one and a half and two on average, which could be a concern.

Again, sulfur oxide management would be critical here.

And then this group here consisted of four wineries, came into holding tank, you know, greater than 1.5 PPM.

So, you know, definitely a concern there.

And they did pick up additional oxygen upon the bottling process as well.

So I also, I already kind of mentioned the bell curve that we tend to see, a good example, and this is just from some previous data, you know, this was a high one and that one that we saw that had the condensation.

So we saw 4.6 at the beginning, the middle of the bottling line, we saw 3.0 and then at the end we saw 3.6 PPM or milligrams per liter.

Another one we saw 2.8 at the beginning, again, too high, but during the middle we saw 2.3 and then at the end they had 2.6.

But this can also explain some of the variations that we might see in bottling and why, you know, potentially we could see, you know, maybe the middle to run having a little bit potential better stability or aromatics than the beginning or the end, potentially.

But our goal is to make it as close as we can.

But high levels of DO in the wine at the holding at the wine are definitely represent undesirable sensory attributes that can develop and a loss of SO2 as well.

The recommended DO levels in bottled wine should be about one parts per million.

That's a lot of the literature we would see.

As I mentioned before, you know, reds can take a little more.

So we can be, you know, at that one or between, maybe even a little bit more depending on the phenolic content.

Whites and roses we'd like to see somewhere, you know, ideally 0.5 to 0.75.

So, but again, if we're below that one or below, we're sitting pretty good with DO in the bottle of wine.

So in our results, two of the five wines were below that.

In that group, that first group that we had, that were acceptable at the holding tank and they were within that one parts per million DO.

The other three were a little bit slightly above.

So in other words, they came in right around where we needed to be 0.5 or before or below.

But they were maybe a little slightly higher than this one suggested guideline, but SO2 management could do could do okay for that group.

The mid-range that we saw had DO levels slightly higher than desired, of 1.7, you know, at bottling there, at the DO, at the bottle of wine.

But then they increased to about 3.1 after bottling.

And again, that's on average with all the reps.

So that's, you know, above, that's the high level, sorry, that's well above what we wanted to see and SO2 management would be really challenging at that level, but this mid-range went from, you know, right around 1 to 1.7 on the DO after bottling.

So that's workable.

So the high range definitely is a challenge.

So, but it's critical to control wine temperature.

You know, bottling stops can have an influence on the amount of oxygen that can entrain during this process as well.

The level in the filling tank, also the inert gas on the filling tank, you know, most automated lines control this through counter pressure and, but not all cases does it work appropriately or if we have a gravity filled line, you know, a lot of people aren't doing, I would probably say majority of the people aren't adding inert gas to their gravity filling tank.

And then bottle evacuation, as we'll see, has a critical role too.

So just looking on average for the DO in the bottled wines kind at an average, we see the different wineries here.

So here's our desired level one, you know, we have a number that are right at or below, but we also have these concerning points that are, you know, higher than desired and those are gonna be a concern for instability down the road.

So looking at bottle evacuation and DO in the bottled wine, excuse me, we found a real pattern for bottle evacuation on the DO content of the wine.

So we're talking about, you know, the ideal situation, bottle evacuation about two to three volumes of inert gas or vacuum depending on the winery and the situation of the bottling line is critical to reduce these DO levels.

And this really tested true for both automated and gravity filled operations.

Although we saw gravity filled operations without bottle evacuation led to undesirable results and that involves six wines or six wineries submitting that, two gravity filled operations that practice bottle evacuation, and we're actually near that one, that desired one parts per million DO in bottled wine.

So if we have a gravity filled operation, if we do the right things with inert gas, we can achieve these levels.

We just have to make sure we pay attention to these things.

So, surprisingly though, these wines contain less DO than wines from some of the automated operations.

So, you know, just because we have an automated operation doesn't mean that we're not picking up higher than desired levels of DO.

And this just shows the influence of our filler type and on the dissolved oxygen levels as well as the effect of bottle evacuation.

So again, this is average, we have automated fillers and then we have gravity fillers.

So this is the average of the reps.

So we had bottle evacuation.

Those that were using bottle evacuation or automated fillers, you know, they were pretty good on their DOs.

Those that were not using evacuation, which we only had one in this case, were extremely high.

So, and the same could be said for a gravity filler.

So we had two gravity fillers that were using an inert gas at filling or just prior to filling to evacuate that bottle.

And they were just over one on average.

So, you know, that was pretty good.

However, we had six that were not applying any type of inert gas or bottle evacuation and they were, you know, much higher than we would like to see.

So we can definitely see that the bottle evacuation had a big influence on having lesser dissolved oxygen.

If we look at headspace oxygen...

So it represents the space between the wine and the closure.

And we don't think about this too much, but really it's considered, you know, a main or major source of oxygen pickup at bottling.

So we did see a lot of variability.

So we ranged anywhere from, you know, 0.6 to 4.9, which is kind of an outlier, that was pretty high.

But we did see some other high values.

Suggested guidelines for headspace would say less than two parts per million to resist oxidation and kind of preserve our overall sensory properties.

We observed about 57% of the wines that we evaluated were over this limit.

Six wines were well over the suggested limit, whereas six wines were below the recommended limit, which was good.

Three of the wines were gravity filled operations.

And I think this is gonna be on video, so you can go back to this too, but they were D, E and F.

Let's see, yeah, so they were below this, which is interesting because a lot of literature would, or you know, information that we hear, we hear gravity filled operations, you know, we can't achieve that.

Well, you know, in these cases we did.

So we were below the recommended limit, which is good to see.

This is just the average concentration of headspace in the 14th.

So again, here's our, we should ideally be below this target of two.

So we had a number that were below that, however, we had some that were higher too.

So again, that would be of concern 'cause we're higher than two PPM in the headspace.

You know, what is it dependent on?

Again, wine temperature, fill volume makes a big difference, inert gas sparging, providing a vacuum corking, these can all have big influence on the headspace oxygen levels.

And then if we look at screw cap closures, you know, they may contain three times the volume of headspace.

So certainly something that we need to be aware of compared to other closures.

So similar to what we saw in DO effects, you know, headspace evacuation with an inert gas had a significant positive effect of lowering dissolved or the oxygen in the headspace.

So an example would be, you know, 2.4 that did not have any type of evacuation to the headspace, whereas on average we saw 1.3 and then another one we saw 3.9 that did not have any evacuation to the headspace with an inert gas, whereas those that did, 1.2.

So, and this was the headspace oxygen, this was the DO.

And this one here slide, this just looks at the influence of bottle and headspace evacuation on the DO and headspace levels.

So we go back to the DO we saw without evacuation and then we saw, I'm sorry, the black is with evacuation and blue is without, so the headspace saw the same trend with evacuation.

You know, we were actually below that too, you know, at a good level.

However, without evacuation we were higher on average with oxygen in the headspace.

So again, it shows the importance of evacuating that oxygen with an inert gas or vacuum.

Looking further at headspace oxygen compared to the total oxygen, literature's shown that we should be less than about 67% of the total oxygen content for acceptability.

So if we look, just take a couple examples.

You know, wines I, J and L experienced very high headspace percentages, you know, in the range of 75 to 80 parts per mil, or percent.

Two were gravity filled.

So the ones in blue, I and J, were gravity filled with cylindrical closures, and one, L, was automated with a screw cap closure.

But in all these cases they did not exercise any headspace evacuation and thus they were, you know, much higher than what we'd like to see.

In contrast, we saw, you know, one that was 27%, which is a very good level and that came from a gravity fill operation.

However, one thing to be cautious of that had a very high DO level going into the, you know, into the wine.

So it kind of skewed the results of the headspace.

So it drove it all the way down to 27.

So that was kind of an outlier that had some variability just due to this high DO level.

The next lowest wines that we saw, A and B, for headspace percentages were automated lines that used, you know, evacuation techniques and used them properly.

So they were sitting pretty good.

So yeah, just essentials we've seen to evacuate to remove the oxygen from the bottle as well as the headspace and or create a vacuum also.

This is the 67%, the desired percent of headspace oxygen compared to the total oxygen we'd like to be below.

And so we saw a number of ours were, but we did see some outliers that were higher in headspace oxygen than what we'd like to see.

So looking at total package oxygen, so that really represents the sum of the dissolved oxygen and the headspace oxygen and a lot of literature sources would say, you know, we wanna be below three on total package.

You know, ideally I would say it'd be good to be below two, or if we happen to be doing a low sulfite wine, I would say probably be below one if we're doing a low sulfite wine.

You know, although DO and headspace oxygen are important, you know, TPO is really, you know, critical or vital to monitor as well.

So in this study we saw TPO values decline rapidly during storage.

The storage interviews that we looked at, you know, whether it be 0, 7, 21, 63 or 126 days after bottling.

Most TPO values in our study we saw were consumed by day 63.

So really, you know, about two months later most TPO values were consumed.

And those that were real high in TPO, we saw, you know, an extension of oxygen loss out to about 126 days.

You know, so this is, just becomes a concern for both chemical oxidation and microbial growth potential or shelf life potential down the road.

So because we know we're gonna bind that sulfur dioxide up and we're not gonna have any in there to help protect that wine down the road either.

And this makes, actually, I guess an important point was, you know, if we have this excess oxygen in there and if we're not practicing sterile filtration to the way that we should be, that makes it even more of a concern because, you know, whatever microbes are in there are gonna be able to utilize that oxygen and create some off byproducts and aromas too, as well.

So looking at the rate of free SO2 decline after bottling, you know, we did see a correlation with the total package oxygen content.

So wines that had the highest TPO levels, you know, we saw and this is really no, I guess, surprise, we saw the largest free SO2 drop, usually within four months after bottling.

So this was kind of a gradual decline, but in some cases we saw it more rapid than other.

Some other studies indicated some additional free SO2 decline where they saw drops of 5 to 10 from 4 to 12 months.

However, this could be maybe even more related to the closure and the oxygen transfer rate.

So that'll have some effect too and may occur a little bit more during the 4 to 12 months on the loss of free SO2.

This is just a slide that shows in one case where we saw the free SO2 at bottling was 40 and this was one of the higher ones just as an example where the DO coming in on average was about 5.8 or close to six parts per million, that's really high.

That's gonna really eat a lot of sulfur dioxide considering that one milligram of oxygen will combine with four, or four milligrams of sulfur oxide PPM will combine with one milligram or PPM of oxygen.

So, and then we saw, you know, that sulfur dioxide at day three starting reduced, but by day 62 essentially we didn't have any left.

So anytime we're below 10, you know, we'd recommend 10 to 15 at bottling to help prevent any microbial or chemical oxidation.

So...

And we saw a reduction in DO, you know, over this time too where we didn't have much at all by day 62, whether it be DO or headspace oxygen.

So some take home points really would be, you know, we really need to adjust SO2 also to 0.8 parts per million molecular for whites, 0.5 or 0.6 for reds based on pH prior to bottling.

You know, that really should be stable before going into bottling.

So that should be stable levels.

And, you know, it's good to know where we are on oxygen pickup during bottling because then we can adjust our SO2 accordingly.

So, you know, that mid-range group that came in just above, you know, one PPM on the DO, you know, one to one and a half, you know, that way we can account for this here and help prolong some shelf life stability too.

So four milligrams will react with one milligram of oxygen.

So if we would have a three milligram oxygen pickup of bottling, we would really need about 12 milligrams per liter or PPM of SO2 in there just to protect that wine from what we're picking up at bottling.

So this wouldn't take into account anything for, you know, wines that are meant for further aging.

You know, if we have a wine, maybe it's an American variety or a hybrid that, you know, we're pushing out 'cause we need it out there and our consumers are gonna consume it within six months, we may not need to add any more SO2 in there beyond what we're gonna add, you know, knowing we're at the right molecular level and what we're gonna add for accounting for the oxygen pickup and bottling, we might not need any more at this point.

However, if it's a wine that we're gonna either lay down or require further aging periods, like maybe, you know, some German Rieslings do that or it might be a year or two or more that they lay that down or some of our reds, which have higher phenolic content, may need a little bit lesser SO2 there too.

But we might wanna add, you know, maybe it's a Chardonnay or Viognier, a little more SO2 just to help prolong shelf life during those longer aging periods.

So something to keep in mind, that could be 10 to 15 parts per million if we're not gonna release it right away for six months to a year down the road.

Something to keep in mind. So proper use is critical.

Again, limit major oxygen pickup sources at bottling, just like we saw in the cellar, you know, if we come in high to the holding tank or the bottling line, you know, then we can sparge with an inert gas.

So we can do that.

Like nitrogen or carbon dioxide, probably choose nitrogen because carbon dioxide, we might have too much pressure build up that could 'cause the outage, outside the cork or push the cork out, which isn't good.

Anytime we have wine transfer to the holding tank, you know, pumping and filtration of the bottling line, you know, we wanna purge those lines as well.

It's important to purge that bottling line, that holding tank, that's holding a lot of oxygen in it.

And if we don't do that, then we're gonna add a lot of oxygen just prior to bottling.

So fill tanks from the bottom, you know, I don't recommend any headspace at all.

So if we can try to control that, I've been at too many wineries, you know, not just in Ohio but across the eastern section that rely too much on inert gas and think it's just gonna protect that wine with a tank that is, you know, got 25% headspace or more.

And they're expecting that to be a miracle worker.

And I wouldn't kid yourself on that.

You know, I think we can use it for a little bit of headspace and especially purging of transfer lines and receiving vessels, but, you know, don't think it's a cure-all for everything either.

So something to just keep in mind.

You know, at bottling, you know, whether we're pumping or filtering, make sure we're operating all this equipment according to manufacturer's directions, you know, make sure all connections and pads are tight, purge air from the filter pads prior to using, and to transfer lines, you know, blanket our fillable with an inert gas to reduce oxygen pickup.

You know, in most cases automated lines, again, with counter pressuring in that we, this is done.

But you know, even on gravity fill lines, you know, I've worked with some of our wineries where we put a nipple poured in and they have a constant flow of an inert gas while they're bottling with a gravity line and it definitely helped lower their oxygen pickup.

So something to keep in mind.

It can vary, DO varies on fill spouts type and force of jet that's used.

You know, I'll just try to have it less turbulent when you're filling the bottle as much as possible.

Again, we've found the importance of either providing vacuum or flushing the bottle with two to three volumes of nitrogen prior to filling.

And this was also shown by Bolton in some literature from 1999.

Headspace.

Again, you know, it can vary a lot, just due to temperature, you know, solubility of gases, bottle shape, size.

So try to keep headspace at ideal levels.

Evacuate that out with an inert gas or vacuum.

And if it's a case of screw caps, you know, inert gas like liquid nitrogen dosing, however, that can get a little expensive with the dosing equipment.

But certainly that is a great way to control that for screw cap operations also.

You know, corking, if it's set up properly, providing a vacuum at the corking can also help.

Anything that we can do just to limit oxygen to bottling, I think, is a great thing to look at and it's gonna help us down the road for shelf life stability and aging potential.

So closures, you know, obviously you're choosing a closure based on the wine that you're bottling and expected longevity that you desire out of that wine too.

But it should be based on the amount of oxygen ingress that's reported on that closure.

So two main factors that we see with closures relating to oxygen entrainment into the wine is closure recovery time from compression.

So how quick, once that's compressed, to get into the bottle, does it recover and make a good seal with the side of the bottle?

And also over time, the rate of oxygen permeation or OTR.

So some work that Lopes found and others like Crozier and that has some good work on, you know, really oxygen level is, oxygen permeation is lowest for screwcaps and technical corks, whereas found it's intermediate for natural cork stoppers and highest for synthetic or those plastic type closures.

So, you know, but it can vary within grades of each closure.

So something to keep in mind...

You know, and the results of this study, you know, I would say that we saw in Ohio, you know, I have no reason to doubt that we wouldn't see this throughout the rest of the Midwest or eastern section.

But, you know, I would just say, be cognizant, pay attention to, you know, your bottling line, and also, you know, what we mentioned, just through cellaring, you know, keep oxygen at bay, make sure that it's not dissolving in into our wines 'cause, you know, ultimately we're gonna affect SO2 levels and have microbial, greater chance for microbial issues down the road and ultimately affect our quality, overall quality and shelf life stability.

So with that, I wanna thank, you know, Dr. Gallander who came back on, like I say, about 8 or 10 years ago with me to help perform this.

And then my technician who has since retired, Patrick Pierquet and Lisa Robbins, who was a graduate student that worked with me on this project too.

So, and as well as Ohio Grape Industries Committee for their support in what we do, whether it be through research or Extension.

So with that, I guess Molly and Chris, if we have any questions, we're certainly happy to answer.

Thanks. - And thanks, Todd.

That's a really comprehensive study that you did. Wow.

- I can stop sharing this too, if that would be good. So...

- [Molly] So our first question and you touched on this a bit, you said that with inert gases you used nitrogen and argon prior to bottling and you sparge with nitrogen and perhaps CO2, but do you have a go-to inert gas, you know, like for purging lines, headspace, that you use across the board or?

- Well, yeah, I mean you can use a combination too, like during the cellar aspect, you know, you can do a little bit more with carbon dioxide or a combination of carbon dioxide and nitrogen as well.

So that can be effective. Argon is a very effective gas.

I'd like to, you know, see what Chris and you, Molly, would say on that too.

But, you know, argon can be expensive but it's pretty dense and so it can provide a pretty good blanket and this, again, would be during the cellaring process, but, you know, it's a little more expensive.

So, you know, even nitrogen purging through the transfer lines and headspace, purging receiving vessels are all critical.

So I think you could use that.

Sometimes I've seen where people will use dry ice bricks and that creates a CO2 environment as well, that will close that headspace.

So you just have to kind of make sure you calculate the amount that you need and that can help out too.

So, but the critical thing would be, you know, just to monitor and keep that inert gas from, or keep that oxygen from dissolving into our wine, especially with these receiving vessels we're transferring to and transfer lines and, you know, paying attention to bottling practices, don't have a lot of lines, stoppages, those kind of things to help, you know, just prevent excess oxygen and keep DO at the bottling tank or the holding tank low, going into bottling.

- [Molly] Yeah, I usually used argon for headspace, like the, everyone had a headspace and then purging some lines, nitrogen seemed to work, like you said, just because of the cost of argon.

So someone else asked about the actual unit, the Nomasense, and is that what you would recommend others who wanna measure DO, are there other- - Well, I... That's a good question.

And I think the Nomasense is an absolutely a great tool that we can use a piece of equipment.

However, it's pretty expensive.

I haven't looked into, you know, we've had it for a while so I haven't looked into cost recently.

You know, I think other DO meters out there you can utilize like some of the handheld DO meters, you know, I've worked with some of the commercial wineries, so you know, that'll give you a good idea where you're at on DO in the tank and then, you know, some in the headspace, if your inert gas is working or not, but, you know, the Nomasense is probably pretty expensive.

It is ideal and maybe it's something, I don't know if Molly or Chris, you guys have that at Penn State or Cornell or Virginia Tech for those that work, you know, that's kind of something we're using more on an extension basis.

So we're covering the cost of that through our Grape Industries Committee and we're using that more on an extension basis for our industry.

So, but I think you can use some of the DO meters that are less expensive out there, the handhelds that can give you a good idea where you're at.

Probably not so much when it comes to non-evasively on bottling.

You guys, Chris and Molly might have a better idea on that, what might be out there that's more non-evasive that a commercial winery could use there.

But something like Nomasense certainly is a great tool for that.

- [Chris] We would use a Hach meter with a fluorescent probe, which are, the fluorescent probes are very accurate and they don't really ever need to be calibrated.

So they're really great for that.

It is destructive, as you said, like you have to open the bottles.

- Right. - We came up with kind of a protocol and a spreadsheet you could use and so you'd have to, you know, you'd have to burn a couple bottles and to maybe dump those back in the tank and rebottle and maybe you're adding oxygen there, but anyway...

But yeah, but it works pretty well and there's some calculations you can do that give you a good idea kind of where you are and that meter, you know, I wanna say that, I mean we have a Nomasense that we were using for research.

I wanna say that was on the $10,000 range when we were looking at those 15 years ago or whatever.

I don't know if they're still at that much price.

And the ones I'm talking about were more like, I wanna say 1500, you know.

- Yeah. - In that range. So...

- That sounds great, Chris.

I mean that I think that's good for, you know, commercial industry and realistic and yeah, I think that's probably, yeah, I can't recall what we paid but it was probably somewhere in that range for that Nomasense.

Yeah, 12 or 10 or 12, something like that would be my guess.

But that sounds good on with the Hach.

- [Molly] Chris, would you mind typing that in the chat the name of that?

The Hach, like how you spell that?

- It keeps auto correcting me, but I'll do my best here.

- Okay. Well...

- H-A-C-H, there he is. Yeah.

- Okay. Thank you.

- Very good.

- [Molly] I have a few more questions here, Todd.

- Yeah.

- [Molly] So if DO was continued to be measured after that 128 days after bottling mark, would DO stay low or would you start to see an increase from any ingress from the closure as free SO2 remaining is limited?

- Yeah, you know, that's a great question.

We're definitely gonna see pretty much going into the, as far as the total package oxygen too in the DO, go into the parts per billion.

So really low.

But, you know, over a period of time, I guess it would depend on the closure too.

So, you know, screw caps we probably wouldn't obviously see much.

If we're using a closure that's not as good or maybe, you know, one that has a lot more OTR or worms or, you know, things like that, it's possible we would see some entrain back in.

I don't know if it would be a great extent, but, you know, we didn't necessarily look at that, and I'd have to look at some data too to see what's out there.

So, but anything that would entrain into the wine because our SO2 levels, you know, if we're bottling at higher total package oxygen or higher DO, higher headspace, we're not gonna have any SO2 in there, pretty much, you know, after, you know, four to eight months.

So any oxygen that does come in is gonna be of concern for sure.

- [Molly] Okay, thanks.

Let's see, how does one calculate a volume of a bottle or vessel, example, filler tank?

Most wineries have a gas cylinder with a pressure gauge.

Do you time it based on pressure, but what about turbulence?

- Yeah, that's always a good question and it, yeah, you have to go back to mathematics to kind of get the exact volume based on the cylinder height and circumference and that.

So yeah, there's an equation that you can use to help with that.

The other thing would be, you know, to put the inert gas in and measure with the DO meter and just make sure that you don't have any oxygen on that DO, on that DO meter.

So as far as headspace net, so that's one other way...

'Cause a lot of times we find that we think we're adding enough oxygen, but it really, it's not, so, but anything is better than nothing, but you know, it's better to have a good idea based on you know, maybe looking at the amount of oxygen that's in that headspace and what that inert gas is, you know, how much we need to lower that to, you know, basically zero or just above that.

- [Molly] Someone else asked, would using CO2 dissolve into the wine and increase acidity and does that have any unintended consequences?

- I mean, you know, we're looking at carbonic acids so we might have some tactile perception in, you know, that's one of the reasons too why we wouldn't choose CO2 at bottling.

I don't know that I'm as concerned during the cellar aging part of it, but at bottling, you know, we could increase pressures a little bit more than desired and we could have a little more tactile sensation or, you know, that carbonic acid effect on the pallet too.

So that's probably why I wouldn't use much at bottling.

So... That, I guess that would be my thoughts.

I don't know if Molly or Chris, you guys got any thoughts on that or not?

- [Molly] I usually just stayed away from CO2 because I was just never really sure, you know, if the wine was too cold or...

Yeah, mostly nitrogen, argon.

- [Chris] It's a little dicier as an inert gas because some of it will probably dissolve in, so...

- Right. - Yeah.

- [Chris] It's not really inert.

- Yeah, that, yeah, that's right.

So yeah, nitrogen, argon, definitely a little better.

I've seen it, you know, more where it's in combination with different percentages with nitrogen and carbon dioxide, you know, during cellaring a little bit more.

But yeah, when you get closer to bottling, I definitely probably would refrain from using that as a major source of inert gas.

- I think we have one more here, Chris, unless I missed one.

Recommended molecular sulfur dioxide on wines with residual sugar, which are recommended level for?

- You know, I think it kind of depends, in my opinion, on how much sugar we're talking about.

So, you know, if we're getting approaching, you know, semi-sweet or sweet, you know, I'd probably be definitely above that 0.8 parts million on whites and 0.5 or 0.6 on red.

So 'cause we're gonna have some binding not only to other constituents of the wine, but you know, some of the sugars as well.

So I'd have to look to see, you know, an exact percentage.

But you know, I don't know if we're upwards towards, you know, approaching one or not, but, you know, we have to look at the pH too and see where we are there, you know, have we had any microbial issues prior to that, has the wine been pretty clean?

So that depends a little bit on it too.

So if the wine's fairly clear, no sediment, clean, we haven't had any microbial issues, then, you know, we might not be, you know, too much higher in that.

Especially, you know, if we're looking at sterile filtration, which is what our goal should be at bottling, you know, I don't know that we have to be too much higher than that.

- [Chris] Right.

It comes down to, if you filter it right then any amount of SO2 is fine and if you filter it wrong then no amount is fine.

So... - Yeah.

- Right. - I think that's exactly right, yep, so...

- [Molly] Did I miss any, Chris, or is that all the questions?

- [Chris] I think you got 'em all.

- [Molly] Okay, so I'll turn it over to you then Chris, and you can close this out here and just remind everyone if you please take the survey, we'd appreciate it.

- [Chris] Yeah, I would just say thanks to everybody for participating.

Thanks to Todd again.

Thanks to Molly for organizing.

Thanks to Beth Chang for NuTech who helped along with us.

Thanks to Kane Hickey and everyone on the viticulture side.

I think this is the official end of the Eastern Viticulture Enology Forum for 2022/2023.

So please, as Molly said, fill out the survey and then reach out to the Extension person, including Todd or anybody in the East you feel most comfortable contacting about topics you'd like to hear in, next year, probably.

And I hope that, you know, all of everybody out here listening had minimal to no damage this last Thursday.

There's significant amounts of damage in my area, here in the Finger Lakes of New York, less in Western New York, some in the Hudson Valley, not much on Long Island, but definitely serious damage here in the Finger Lakes.

So I hope- - Yeah, it's sad to hear about that, Chris.

That's, it's not good, so...

- [Chris] No, it's not good.

And so, we'll continue to keep our fingers crossed and hope that, you know, we get as much growth as we can and as much fruitfulness from the secondary buds.

But yeah, hope everybody has a good season.

And other than that, yeah, let us know what you'd like to hear in the future.

Please do fill out the survey.

And is there anything else, Molly, we need to say?

- [Molly] No, I think we're all set.

Just thanks everyone for attending. Appreciate it.

And thank you Todd.

- Yeah, thanks to everybody and Molly and Chris.

You guys got a great thing going here.

So, good to have everybody aboard.

- [Molly] Okay, thanks Chris for moderating. Appreciate it.

Bye-bye everyone. - Take care. Bye-bye.